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12/10/2003 Archived Entry: "I hereby propose 'Stranger's Law.'"
I hereby propose 'Stranger's Law.'
If you frequent just about any place on the web where politics is debated, you're familiar with the old Usenet term 'Godwin's Law.' If you frequent these places and aren't aware of it, here's a synopsis:
As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.
As we head into the 2004 election year, much has been made in the SCLM* over those horrible 'Bush Haters' - a rubric that apparently includes anyone who would say anything critical of Bush, probably even down to not liking the color of his tie.
So in the interest of keeping the political discussions honest in the coming year, I'm proposing a variant of Godwin's Law that I'm calling 'Stranger's Law.' And it goes a little something like this:
As a discussion of US politics grows longer, the probability of a liberal or progressive being called a 'Bush-Hater' approaches one. Once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever called someone a Bush Hater has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.
So let it be written. So let it be done.
* So-Called Liberal Media
Replies: 42 people speak up
just to be clear... we can still compare bush to hitler though right? it is such an apt analogy that i just dont know if i could stop, whether it means i lose or not. other than caligula, or nero there are no other historical comparisons that work for the little bastard
Posted by justin @ 12/10/2003 02:06 PM NY
by the way, thanks for that jargon dictionary site, that will be very usefull to me at some time in the future, im sure
and bi the way, i am a "bush-hater", does it count if you say it about yourself? i hate the man like ive never hated anyone before that i didnt know personally
Posted by justin @ 12/10/2003 02:20 PM NY
Stranger, why do you hate America so much? I am shocked and awed that you are so against being fair and balanced. You must be some terrorist and Saddam loving Bush-hater. ;)
Posted by Jason @ 12/10/2003 02:23 PM NY
see, thats the problem with us liberal bush haters. we just cant resist. rules just make us want to break them. you say we cant say something, and we just have to, its like anti-authoritarian tourettes syndrome or something. its a sickness i tell ya
Posted by justin @ 12/10/2003 02:38 PM NY
thanks; i'll use this
Posted by julian @ 12/10/2003 04:58 PM NY
another data point in my bush==hitler; neocons==nazis theory...
Posted by kevin lyda @ 12/10/2003 05:00 PM NY
I like it! Especially the part about equating "You ... you.... you... you... Bush hater!" with "I can't advance my argument any further but I won't admit I am wrong or I lost the argument." I guess it is the NeoCons attempt at a "shorter" quip.
Posted by TechnoPeasant @ 12/10/2003 05:02 PM NY
For what it’s worth, a regular guy like me, with little education but a lot of experience, can only sit here and chuckle, to stay sane. With all this high-minded talk, all this fire and passion, none of this screaming changes our world for the better. We are spending a great deal of time engaging in divisive politics. Yet each day we all get up, go to work, pay our taxes, say our prayers and then go to bed. And the next day, we do it all over, thinking that the screaming, if louder, will change things.
I say that tomorrow we need to wake up and change the paradigm. We need to redeem ourselves, and our democracy.
Real dialogue has all but disappeared from our society. There no longer exists a spirit of compromise or unity among us. Politically, we have lost our sense of purpose. Reasoned debate has been cloven in two, or more aptly torn in half. The fabric that our founding fathers and heroes have woven for us is now unraveling before our eyes, in our very hands. And We don’t seem to be willing to mend it.
But each day, my daughter gets up and attends her public school, to experience the education guaranteed her by our state constitution. I pay my property taxes to fund it.
Today we can only listen to one side of the debate at a time. We can either turn to “vast, right-wing talk radio” or the “fair and balanced” cable networks for one side. Otherwise we are left to the “liberal elites” and their “media outlets”, or these vast, left-wing blogs to get the counter-punch. And with the exception of a few rants or shouts (mostly ad hominem) from the minority dissenters in each given forum, we are simply overwhelmed with psuedo-intellectual propaganda, by those feverishly pursuing the partisan agenda particular to the cause or party.
Of course, if you desire, you need only look to C-SPAN to observe this. One word… “Filibuster.”
We hear that President Clinton lied. We hear that President Bush lied. And if we take these premises as true, then we only need flip a coin, to decide who to blame for our depleted 401(k)’s and for that horrible day we all suffered two years ago.
We complain how our political leaders lack vision, and how they misappropriate our tax dollars and our trust. Yet, while we blindly criticize each other and our elected leaders, in the same moment we click over to Sportscenter to catch the scores, or to target.com to ring up more consumer debt. Our political debate is just masturbation.
President Lincoln came to learn that our freedoms and values, that is, our democracy, could be redeemed in war. And now We now find ourselves in a war on terror. As this war is waged, our nation has an opportunity to redeem itself. We have an opportunity to reshape and ratify our freedoms. We have a chance to reaffirm our equality. When this war is won, we must be stronger for it.
But still I sit here each day, discouraged by the fact that we would rather misconstrue our nation’s experience and wisdom from the Civil War, by attempting to divide a Union that must remain indivisible.
Whether we currently lack the courage to admit it, we live in the greatest nation on earth. Everyday, the most extreme among us, as well as the most mundane, experience the freedom to express themselves, to each other and the entire world, in a fashion unprecedented in any other country, in any other time. But this is taken for granted. What is more troubling is that in doing so, we seem to suffer some sort of collective guilt, seeking penance from those who either desire to enjoy our freedoms, or desire to destroy them. We need to be proud of who we are, and to recognize that We as a people and a nation can change the world, for the positive, if we embrace each other, and our obligation to lead. This is our purpose.
We all wake up each day, blessed with the same rights and the same responsibilities. We are all created equal under the law. We are granted the ability to freely debate each other. And the compromises that are forged from this constructive debate should make us stronger, as a nation. Unproductive debate simply makes us appear self-important, and make us weaker. Yes, we ARE AMERICANS, We the People. We are ONE NATION. Please, I pray that we start to understand and accept this.
Posted by phillycheesesteak @ 12/10/2003 11:53 PM NY
Dear Phillycheesesteak,
Would that the kind and generous voices like yours be raised and heard. Diplomacy and a willingness to compromise are indeed missing in not only our political discourse, but sadly also often in our personal relationships.
Thank you for a thought-filled, and thought-provoking post.
Posted by nancymaus @ 12/11/2003 12:34 AM NY
Gosh, phillycheesesteak. What a lovely speech. Unfortunately, it's all bread and no meat.
"Let's change the paradigm." You so elegantly proclaim. But then you exhort us to accept ourselves as "One Country." Which is it? Do we accept the status quo or go out and fight? How do you propose we fight? (I'm ready to fight with words, even with my wallet, but I'd like to avoid exchanging gunfire with my neighbors.)
I'm sorry, but this screed seems too much like a "sit down and shut up" rather than a rallying call. This is not the great country we believe in, but it could be. The greatest ammunition we have for getting to our ideals is the fair exchange of ideas, not some half-assed, misnamed "War on Terror." If we truly want to improve our country and our world, we need start in the US, working to throw out the Oligarchs and their facade for world domination known as the war on terror. (This is NOT something we should be accepting.)
For us to be World Leaders, we need to lead in peace and justice, not firepower, technology, graft and pollution. If getting there takes debate, Filibuster, boycotts, peaceful demonstrations and passive resistance, then lets get to work. These are legal and just means to change the system.
Posted by TheOaf @ 12/11/2003 09:19 AM NY
I don't know Phillycheesesteak--
you sound like some kind of Bush-hater.
(just kidding)
Posted by Alex @ 12/11/2003 09:20 AM NY
I don't know Phillycheesesteak--
you sound like some kind of Bush-hater.
(just kidding)
Posted by Alex @ 12/11/2003 09:20 AM NY
Doh!!
Posted by Alex @ 12/11/2003 09:21 AM NY
Phillycheesesteak--Eloquent, but ineffective.
What is happening in our country is an unprecedented power grab by the rich and powerful, and their useful idiots. The GOP has abandoned all principle for the sake of retaining and consolidating power. Calm discourse is great, and could solve some problems. Meanwhile, your pockets are being picked and your ownership stake in government and in your country is being stolen.
Democrats have been a little too high-minded to notice that they are being robbed blind. If you aren't angry at what is happening to your country, you aren't paying attention.
Posted by 537 votes @ 12/11/2003 09:31 AM NY
wow, thread over at comment number one!
Posted by nilsey @ 12/11/2003 09:57 AM NY
The problem Philly, is that you want to play by the rules with people that don't even understand there are rules.
This week on my blog I have been discussing a debate (such as it was) with a Yahoo group called "The New Knighthood" over the idea that this was a country founded on the principles of Christianity. One of the pieces of evidence they offered was a quote from Jefferson proclaiming that he was a real Christian. Now what Jefferson really means is that he is more of a Christian than those calling themselves Christian because he does not believe any of the superstition in the gospels, just the pure moral message. This can be seen by reading "The Jefferson Bible' his attempt to re-write the gospels to eliminate the superstition.
The owner of the list assured the group that he enjoyed vigorous debate so I answered in the group. There was no debate, just a bunch of empty assertions that they did not bother to back up, some name calling, and many attempts to change the subject. After only three posts I was muted. This is a perfect snapshot of the right wing's idea of "vigorous" debate.
Posted by Dominion @ 12/11/2003 10:06 AM NY
I agree with phillycheesesteak. I agree it would be true if this were a perfect world with perfect people. Your statement kind of reminds me of what Rodney King said as he sat recovering from a terrible beating. Can't we all just get along (Irony intended)?
Posted by cain @ 12/11/2003 10:10 AM NY
Change can occur in small steps. Stop just writing here. Send a letter to the editor, even if you know it won't get published. Why? Because editors read them. If they get enough, they pay attention, especially if the letters are specific. I try to write at least one a week, and I wish I could write more.
This is one way that the mighty wurlitzer got to where it is - lots of letters to lots of media outlets. Relentlessly.
Face it, you're just preaching to the choir here. You need to shine your light where it has at least some chance of making a difference.
Posted by Jeff Boatright @ 12/11/2003 11:15 AM NY
Godwin's law has been repealed by necessity. George W Bullshit, by actually being a Nazi, has made the law completely redundant. My suspicion is that he and the neocons never really forgave FDR for beating up on the fascists, and so they've set about undoing every gain since the eve of WWII. They're doing a pretty good job of it too.
Posted by Aaaargh @ 12/11/2003 11:21 AM NY
Aaaargh,
undoing every gain since WWII? How about since the 1920's?
Posted by NC @ 12/11/2003 11:27 AM NY
lets get one thing clear, george w bush is not a nazi, he is a fascist. a nazi would not side so blatantly with israel every single time. prescot bush, now he was a nazi..... of course the bush family is angry at fdr, look what our defeat of germany did to prescots war profiteering. not to mention the fact that FDR brought about all of the social safety net programs that the right calls "Entitlement". the fact is that thes neocons are fascists, but they are not anti semites (well im sure some of them are) they need isreal so that their apocalypse can happen. the group that these fascists hate is the poor, which is ironic, since they are helping to create so many more of them.
Posted by justin @ 12/11/2003 11:51 AM NY
let's put prescott bush on the Dime!
Posted by joestalininhell @ 12/11/2003 12:24 PM NY
Renato's Corollary to Stranger's Law:
"As a discussion of US domestic and foreign policy grows longer, the probability of a right-winger saying, '9/11 changed everything!' or otherwise using 9/11 as an excuse for the US to do anything it damn well pleases including killing thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians, approaches one. Once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever used 9/11 as an excuse for the Bush regime's innumerable lies, civil rights violations, and war crimes has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress."
Posted by renato @ 12/11/2003 12:36 PM NY
phillycheesesteak wrote:
"When this war [on Terror] is won, we must be stronger for it."
What makes you think so vehemently that this war will be won? Your declaration that it WILL be won is overconfident and rash.
It is a never-ending war. Guerilla wars usually are. We're trapped by this so-called war into a lifetime of terror, useless preparation, endless spending, hopeless defenses, and Republican domination by way of their supposed superiority in protecting us.
When can we surrender?
Later,
Posted by Daddy-O @ 12/11/2003 12:46 PM NY
"clinton lied"
"bush lied"
the simplistic argument is the reason why the leftist-elites rage. There is more than clinton or bush lying - you learn that in first grade not grad school - it is WHAT they lied about that matters. period. we are all lying liars all the time - "yes little sally, there is such a thing as santa clause"
The point is/was there is a difference between progressives and conservatives: they were able to spend MILLIONS and MILLIONS looking into why clenis got a hummer....but we are NOT spending squat (compared) into why bush lied.
So your just sit there and take it diatribe wont work for true progressives who believe in righteousness.
Posted by aldo @ 12/11/2003 01:20 PM NY
The War Against Terrorism, AKA TWAT, cannot ever be won. terrorism is caused by injustice. heaping further injustice upon the worlds poor will not help to make them docile. the only thing you can do to stop terrorism is to rectify the problem that is causing it. conservatives like to call this giving in to terrorism, that is a falsehood however. it is not a sin to admit that you are wrong, it is not giving in to terrorists, it is giving in to simple reason, giving in to your own humanity. the west simply cannot continue to dominate the world. anyone with a shred of sense realizes this, it is simple racism to think that the white culture (becuase that really is what we mean when we say western civilization) will alwways be dominant in the world. genetics alone should show us that a "white" dominance isnt possible, because none of our genes are dominant, which is the root of most racism, genetic insecurity.
you simply cannot tell people "you give in and stop the violence, and then we will listen to you?" anyone who has studied american history will know that logic spelled out a death sentence for native american culture. we cant put every other culture in the world onto reservations and into ghettos or concentration camps. we have the guns but they have the numbers. you cannot stop someone who is willing to kill themselves just for the chance of hurting you. threatening these people with death is meaningless to them, they have nothing to lose, and nothing to live for. the only way you can stop suicide bombers is to give them something to live for, plain and simple.
Posted by justin @ 12/11/2003 01:53 PM NY
"Bush-hater" = pull the plug.
Posted by Dr. Damfa @ 12/11/2003 02:28 PM NY
Phillycheesesteak,
I wish our country were as great as you seem to think it is. Many people hold such ideals, but we seldom practice them. You claim that everyone in this country has been blessed with the same rights and responibilities. Other people would disagree. I work in the medical field, and many of my doctor friends from India and other foreign nations do not feel they have the same rights. They are afraid to speak out on a forum such as this. Most were born in this country, and their families have been productive US citizens for many decades. Yet they fear to travel abroad because they do not know what will happen to them in cistoms upon their return. They feel as if their right to travel on airplanes is in jeapordy. They worry about their privacy. They worry about their parents being deported. They worry some overzealous police or investigation can ruin their lives at any moment, even if they are found to be innocent. They worry they will no longer have the right to a trial or even a lawyer.
No, not everyone in this country is blessed with the same rights. A lot of other American minority groups could probably tell us something about how that really works. We should have the same rights, and we could have the same rights. Our country's ideals allow us that possibility. But just sitting back like you suggest and assuming we have the same rights is what got us into this position in the first place. When things go wrong, people need to stand up and shout. This is what earned our coutnry freedom in the first place. The cost: eternal vigilance, remember?
I agree we need to have more constructive and reasonable debates without the wide schism between opposing views. Especially since most people in the country fall somewhere in the middle. But these debates need to rage on, all the more so when our coutnry is following such a disastrous course, as I believe it is. We cannot assume that things will just go on as well as they have, or assume that things are good and fair simply because we live in America. We have to continue to ensure that this is so.
Vlad
Posted by Vlad @ 12/11/2003 05:01 PM NY
Phillycheesesteak,
I wish our country were as great as you seem to think it is. Many people hold such ideals, but we seldom practice them. You claim that everyone in this country has been blessed with the same rights and responibilities. Other people would disagree. I work in the medical field, and many of my doctor friends from India and other foreign nations do not feel they have the same rights. They are afraid to speak out on a forum such as this. Most were born in this country, and their families have been productive US citizens for many decades. Yet they fear to travel abroad because they do not know what will happen to them in cistoms upon their return. They feel as if their right to travel on airplanes is in jeapordy. They worry about their privacy. They worry about their parents being deported. They worry some overzealous police or investigation can ruin their lives at any moment, even if they are found to be innocent. They worry they will no longer have the right to a trial or even a lawyer.
No, not everyone in this country is blessed with the same rights. A lot of other American minority groups could probably tell us something about how that really works. We should have the same rights, and we could have the same rights. Our country's ideals allow us that possibility. But just sitting back like you suggest and assuming we have the same rights is what got us into this position in the first place. When things go wrong, people need to stand up and shout. This is what earned our coutnry freedom in the first place. The cost: eternal vigilance, remember?
I agree we need to have more constructive and reasonable debates without the wide schism between opposing views. Especially since most people in the country fall somewhere in the middle. But these debates need to rage on, all the more so when our coutnry is following such a disastrous course, as I believe it is. We cannot assume that things will just go on as well as they have, or assume that things are good and fair simply because we live in America. We have to continue to ensure that this is so.
Oh, and everyone else who posted here is a Nazi. And a Bush-hater.
Vlad
Posted by Vlad @ 12/11/2003 05:04 PM NY
none of this really matters now because we are all going to die of the flu anyway. do you think this is just fearmongering on the medias part? or do you think something seriouse is really happening here?
Posted by justin @ 12/11/2003 05:23 PM NY
Flu = the new sharks.
Posted by editor @ 12/11/2003 05:26 PM NY
Phillycheesesteak,
I wish our country were as great as you seem to think it is. Many people hold such ideals, but we seldom practice them. You claim that everyone in this country has been blessed with the same rights and responibilities. Other people would disagree. I work in the medical field, and many of my doctor friends from India and other foreign nations do not feel they have the same rights. They are afraid to speak out on a forum such as this. Most were born in this country, and their families have been productive US citizens for many decades. Yet they fear to travel abroad because they do not know what will happen to them in cistoms upon their return. They feel as if their right to travel on airplanes is in jeapordy. They worry about their privacy. They worry about their parents being deported. They worry some overzealous police or investigation can ruin their lives at any moment, even if they are found to be innocent. They worry they will no longer have the right to a trial or even a lawyer.
No, not everyone in this country is blessed with the same rights. A lot of other American minority groups could probably tell us something about how that really works. We should have the same rights, and we could have the same rights. Our country's ideals allow us that possibility. But just sitting back like you suggest and assuming we have the same rights is what got us into this position in the first place. When things go wrong, people need to stand up and shout. This is what earned our coutnry freedom in the first place. The cost: eternal vigilance, remember?
I agree we need to have more constructive and reasonable debates without the wide schism between opposing views. Especially since most people in the country fall somewhere in the middle. But these debates need to rage on, all the more so when our coutnry is following such a disastrous course, as I believe it is. We cannot assume that things will just go on as well as they have, or assume that things are good and fair simply because we live in America. We have to continue to ensure that this is so.
Oh, and everyone else who posted here is a Nazi. And a Bush-hater.
Vlad
Posted by Vlad @ 12/11/2003 05:30 PM NY
sorry about the multiple posts. My computer connection was having fits.
Vlad
Posted by lad @ 12/11/2003 05:31 PM NY
yeah, but diseases are a lot scarier than sharks, you can always not swim. besides the biggest danger from any kind of fish (according to the FDA) is apparently eating it. hey fuck heads! how about if you dont dump mercury in the ocean in the first fucking place? may they all burn in hell! (sorry, but if i cant have a nice piece of very rare sashimi grade tuna without getting mercury poisoning i very well might go on a killing spree, seafood is a very big deal!) i was planning on being a marine biologist till i realized i couldnt handle the math involved in a biology degree
Posted by justin @ 12/11/2003 05:38 PM NY
Bush isn't a fascist, he's a corporatist (or, more to the point, he's a puppet for corporatists). Corporatists use fascists, fascists use corporatists.
Posted by Diamond LeGrande @ 12/11/2003 06:30 PM NY
Point well taken, Vlad.
I freely admit that my post was a bit satirical, but it provoked the intended response.
Let's all rage on.
Together.
Hand in hand.
Posted by phillycheesesteak @ 12/11/2003 09:18 PM NY
hehe -- I date a sweet gigantic cop who can't help but be a right-winger, though he's charming for all that.
One day he mourned to me that this country was going the way of Rome, and I couldn't help it -- I had to say "Gee, I didn't figure that Bush was *quite* as bad as Caligula!" Liberal Tourettes is a good name for it -- I had to do it, just *had* to ....
Posted by meg @ 12/11/2003 09:34 PM NY
phillycheesesteak,
Clinton Lied - Parking Ticket
Bush Lied - Armed Robbery
Now is there a difference? If you can't see it, then you're an ideologue, or a Clinton-Hater, or both.
Posted by Stentor @ 12/12/2003 09:39 PM NY
This is truly amusing. This discussion was initiated by the proposition of ‘Strager’s Law’, which was stated as:
As a discussion of US politics grows longer, the probability of a liberal or progressive being called a 'Bush-Hater' approaches one. Once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever called someone a Bush Hater has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.
This statement presumes that liberals engaging in rational debate that have criticized actions of the Bush administration have been attacked with a simple retort of “Bush-Hater”. Yet the subsequent discussion has been dominated by individuals openly and proudly proclaiming themselves as “Bush-Haters”. That’s not where it has stopped, many of you have gone further to even compare Bush to Hitler (oh yeah, excluding the person who so rationally stated he couldn’t be a Nazi because he supports Jews). It is really hard to take such *political* debate seriously when such ludicrous, unsubstantiated claims are made. Now, now, before all of you get upset and rant that I’m infringing on your first amendment rights, I’m not saying such discourse should not be permitted to take place, just using my rights to express how amusingly off-base the discussion is.
I actually stumbled on to this discussion after doing some research on the topic of the constitutionality of the Patriot Act following a debate with a friend. Two-clicks off the subject brought me to this. There are a few valid points brought into the discussions, but those are lost amid the excessive bashing. I’m just very glad these thoughts and ideas are only carried by a small minority of Americans (even liberals for that matter). It is lucky for this minority that they live in America so that such political discourse can continue, because contrary to what many of you think, dissidence does not make America what it is. While it is true America has a strong history of such, political protest does not assure such freedom, but rather affirms the successful creation of the greatest democracy in history, a democracy that was purchased in blood and continues to stand today due to ongoing sacrifice.
So enjoy the discussion and the attacks that I’m sure are to follow this posting, just remember what it takes to create such freedom.
Posted by Ryan G @ 12/14/2003 03:27 PM NY
that is almost as rediculous as the boeing add that says "here at boeing we didnt invent democracy, but our missile systems defend it... blah blah" democracy is dissidence, plain and simple. the entire purpose to democracy is discourse and dissent. i must however point our that america isnt a democracy, america used to be a republic (a democracy is governance by the people themselves, a republic is governance by officials elected by the people) america is currently an oligarchy (governance by officials appointed by the wealthy few to serve their interests)
it is sad, but true. deal with it. the only freedoms you have are the freedoms they allow you to have, and if they take them away you wont do anything about it, as long as you are comfortable and feel safe. go back to sleep.
Posted by justin @ 12/15/2003 12:31 PM NY
and by the way, i think we all know what it took to secure our freedom (not create, freedom is inherent) it took the blood of thousands upon thousands. remember all of the people who died securing your freedom, all of the civil rights martyrs, our founding fathers, the suffragettes, the abolitionists, the bootleggers and rumrunners, the hippies, the black panthers, the labor movement, everyone who has ever taken a stand for something and been crushed by the system. remember these people, and remember what they sacraficed for the freedoms you now have. next time you are ready to give up your rights to make yourself feel safer, remember how expensive those rights were, and think about how your children will have to die to secure them again.
Posted by justin @ 12/15/2003 12:37 PM NY
Stentor,
Bush has implicated himself in a lot more than mere Armed Robbery! See http://users.adelphia.net/~earthwatch/
Posted by web surfer @ 12/16/2003 08:19 PM NY
